Ep. 556 Control Your Crypto Security with Harpie the On Chain Firewall
Ep. 556 Control Your Crypto Security with Harpie the On Chain FirewallPowered by RedCircle
In this episode of Crypto 101 we have Daniel Chong the CEO and Co-Founder of Harpie which is an on chain firewall that is designed to protect threats before they occur. They are the first and only company that’s ever stopped a private key theft automatically. With new threats arising everyday in crypto it is always a great idea to brush up on options around security so give this episode a listen and check out Harpie for more!
— TRANSCRIPT —
SPEAKERS
Aaron Malone, Bryce Paul
Bryce Paul 00:09
All right, everybody. Welcome back. All you good wonderful citizens of crip nation. Hope you’re having a fantastic morning, noon or night wherever you guys are in the world. You’re certainly in the right place. I’m joined as always by my notorious compadre Mr. Aaron Malone pizza mind that Malone raining from not Texas anymore. You could can you take the Texas out of a man however, if you take him out of Texas
Aaron Malone 00:39
bomb Jia, I am in Sao Paulo, Brazil. For now. I will be back to Texas at some point definitely. But I’m escaping the scorching summer this time by going down to the nice mild winter of South America. It is a nice, overcast 65 degrees outside. Couldn’t ask for more in life,
Bryce Paul 01:04
man. Well, I love it. There was also quite an exciting weekend in the crypto markets and all such good things. We’re gonna dive into a lot about crypto security today with our guest get something something peace of mind is intimately familiar with crypto security. We’ve got Daniel Chang, who is the CEO and co founder of a crypto security company called heartbeat. And we’re gonna dive deep into to all such things. But first, let’s welcome our guest to the show. Daniel, how are you doing today?
01:37
I’m great. I’m great. Thanks for having me.
Bryce Paul 01:39
Absolutely. Daniel, tell us a little bit about you before we dive into crypto security and harpy, you know, what’s your what’s your background? How’d you find yourself building in this crazy blockchain and crypto world?
01:54
Yes. So I started I started using crypto and around 2012. So a long time ago, I was a GE Yeah, I was selling video game items for Bitcoin. I was originally just selling video video game items. And there was a marketplace and I found Bitcoin. And I thought it was really cool that I could trade with people all over the globe without I was very young back then I had no bank account. So I was already already like figuring out the original use case of crypto, it’s like international money transmission. Agent. You know, life goes on life goes on, I kind of take took a step back from Krypto, from like 2014 to 2017. But around that time, the ICO bubble for a bunch of different projects came out. Aetherium was one that was really cool that I saw. So I’ve been developing in Aetherium ever since I’ve seen I’ve developed for a ton of different projects. I’ve pretty much seen everything. And after, you know going to university going to Duke I realized that there was a big hole in the market in terms of transaction security, like people were getting scammed scamming was evolving, and it followed a lot of the similar parallels that I saw when Bitcoin was starting. So I thought I would kind of start building in the space. And here I am.
Aaron Malone 03:13
That’s awesome. And there’s such a need for Bitcoin. As I’m noticing already here, in Brazil, I never know what kind of payment is going to work, whether it’s going to be my credit card, or my debit card, sometimes one will work and not the other. Some places still accept cash, but I can’t go to an ATM and pull cash out. I’m stuck with whatever I brought with me, because of the way the banking systems work. My credit union in San Diego doesn’t have any affiliations with a bank here in Brazil. So I’m on an island now with limited resources. And for an example of payment security. I just spent 20 minutes with a Pizza Hut driver, trying to figure out a four digit PIN code to prove that he actually delivered the pizzas to me, you know, and that I actually paid for them. Like I’m showing him like the receipt and everything’s like No, I know I understand this. But if I don’t have this code, which isn’t appearing on your app anywhere, then I can’t deliver these pizzas, they’re gonna charge me for it. So there’s this whole debacle that Bitcoin could totally fix because once a Bitcoin payment is made, it’s irreversible. That’s it. It’s final. And this is the type of security and comfortability is completely lacking here in Brazil is trusting the actual payments. So it’s amazing that you’re building in this space. And we need some kind of idea of not just once we’ve received the payment but how to keep it secure. Like one of my favorite quotes is from another founder who received one from a funny who always says if you protect your downside, there will always be upside, just because of the nature of being so early in this digital revolution. So we’re really excited to pick your brain on security here in crypto, I guess you’ll let’s just open it up right away, maybe you could give us just a couple best practices that come to mind right away when it comes to keeping your Bitcoin safe.
05:12
So for like a slight, slight clarification right now heartbeat only works with Aetherium. So we don’t work with the Bitcoin protocol at all. But similar things on that
Aaron Malone 05:23
Bitcoin Etherium. Crypto, mostly all the same wallet anyway at this point.
05:28
But in general, I would say the biggest kind of mental gap that people have about crypto security is that they feel like they’re getting hacked or like outside intruders are getting into their computer or their PC. That’s actually not happening most of the time. Usually, you’re getting fished, which which if people are not familiar, it means that you’re clicking a link that is purported to be a different link. And then someone is making you sign a transaction, essentially, like signing the deed away to your house, just like hiding whatever that process looks like. And because the way that crypto transactions are coded, it’s very hard to understand that you’re sending your money away when when that transaction actually pops up. So I would say over 99% of scams are done in that phishing phishing type method. So how do you prevent against that? You know, it’s not something that a hardware will actually help it’s hardware wallets are very useful. But hardware wallets don’t stop you from signing your money away. So a lot of the things that you can do there is, first of all, just making sure not to click on any suspicious links. Like if it’s too good to be true, it definitely is, especially in crypto, and then pass that it’s, you know, make sure you have the right safeguards in place to make sure you don’t have all your money in one singular wallet. I would say those are kind of the two main tips that I have there.
Bryce Paul 06:48
Yeah, I love it. You know, you one of my favorite sayings in crypto is like, you know, it’s it’s really cool to make money. But what’s also cool is keeping your money safe. And maybe you have some stats around how much money has actually been hacked. In recent, you know, years, I saw it somewhere upwards in the billions of dollars of value lost from very simple crypto hacks that that are pretty avoidable. Is that right?
07:14
Yeah, I think the number is in the 10s of billions. I don’t have the number on hand, but it increases by like three years ago, it’s increasing 80% a year. I think immune if I just made a report that increased by 200% Last year, so it is definitely being a big problem.
Bryce Paul 07:30
So what is harpy doing to stop that? I know you guys refer to yourself as the on chain firewall. I think people don’t even know what even maybe a firewall does to begin with. So what are you guys trying to accomplish?
07:43
So the way that we kind of stop people from falling victim to scams is that we kind of sit between your wallet and the blockchain and any transaction that comes out of your wallet, we scan it to see if there’s anything weird going on. So and if there is anything weird going on, we’re actually able to prevent that transaction to go into blockchain. So it’s like wallet two factor authentication. If we see something that’s like kind of iffy with the transaction you’re sending out, we’ll send you an email or send you a telegram, we’ll send you a text based on like, we’ll also Hey, like, this is kind of weird. You might be sending all of your money to this address. Do you want this transaction to go through yes or no. And at its core, that’s what harpy is it’s we’re two factor authentication for transactions. And there’s a lot of things that we do on the side, including like wallets, security scans, health checks, and stuff like that. But we are kind of one of the only products that actually help you prevent your bad transactions or our scam transactions from hitting the blockchain. Yeah, that’s
Aaron Malone 08:41
incredible. How do you guys actually do that?
08:44
So we are interested like not to get too technical, but we’re in the RPC layer. The RPC is this layer that transmits signed messages from your private key or from your wallet to the blockchain. So it’s just kind of like a transmitter. And usually it has no bells and whistles like it’s just it’s literally a server that just sends it to the blockchain because you need it. But we’ve kind of added this filtering layer that decodes whatever is being put in, make sure that there’s nothing fishy in terms of the call data. And then since the blockchain so we sit between the blockchain and the and the
Bryce Paul 09:21
user. And you know, for somebody listening who you know, wants to dive in, like, you know, obviously, they’ll go to your site and figure it all out. But from from a high level, how is an average user like me your peace of mind or one of our listeners? How do we utilize heartbeat? Is that a download? Do we need a new wallet? Do we just point to a different RPC node,
09:42
so it’s if anyone has like ever used crashing functionality with a with a meta mask if you’ve added arbitrage or more polygons here to your wallet, you’ll know that you just click a button on your meta mask or your some other wallet that you have, and now you have access to that or PC. So there’s no download. There’s nothing like that. It’s just you click it, it automatically integrates into your wallet. And it’s done. Yep.
Bryce Paul 10:07
That’s super simple. That’s actually way more simple and optimistic than what I was anticipating just you got to get a new plugin and download this new software, but it sounds pretty about the simplest thing you could do in crypto.
10:21
Oh, yeah, you just click a button. It installs like right into your wallet. There’s no like download or anything.
Bryce Paul 10:26
And then we’ll in my for instance, if I’m using meta mask, I’m pointing to the is it called the heartbeat? RPC endpoint? Yeah, yeah. And and then we’ll and then it, then I send a transaction, will I get a message passed back in like human readable terms that says, you know, here’s the the notification about the alert, that something might be fishy. Exactly. Very cool. And so what got you like really started on this mission? Was it really from a standpoint of like, your, are you a developer that, you know, you’ve figured this is a really easy problem to solve? Did you have a friend or family member that was hacked, and maybe that kind of set you off on this?
11:10
So kind of the big story was, like I said, I started in crypto in 2012. Crypto, I think back then was not worth very much. I’ll say that I had 15 Bitcoins that I lost from back then all my heartbeat started as like it lost crypto prevention service, like we stopped people from losing their crypto. But as we, as time moved on, we realized that there wasn’t like, because Bitcoin was only like, $10, back then a lot of people lose, lost their Bitcoin but because Bitcoin and Aetherium are actually worth money. Now, that problem doesn’t really exist anymore. So we we pivoted, because we realized that a lot of the same tech that we’ve been building could be used to protect customership scams and not necessarily, you know, loss. So that’s kind of the kind of the main reason we’re working in the security space. Also, it’s just something that I’ve wanted to work in for a while. So
Aaron Malone 12:02
how do you go about configuring a system are a trading setup to prevent loss, we figured out you know, a couple of ways to avoid getting hacked. But I think a lot of us are our own worst enemies out there, you know, we’re always dropping our iPhone and cracking the screen or losing our house keys or our car keys or something, you know, what’s the best way to make sure that we don’t screw ourselves over?
12:28
I would say it depends. It’s everyone has their own like kind of setup. It’s weird and crypto, everyone. It’s such a, like hacker core industry, that everyone has their own kind of setup. But I would say a general setup that I would say most security, people wouldn’t would would agree with is you have multiple copies of multiple shares if your seed or your private key, and you have those in many different locations. So one family member has this, another family member has this, you have this in your desk or something you have this buried in some kind of plot of land you own in the backyard. It depends on how much you own. First of all, like, if you have like $1,000 in crypto, maybe it’s not worth going through all this stuff. But if you have a significant portion, I would say the most secure way to do it is to split your key into multiple parts and have some duplicates of certain parts, and then just bring those like pick up. If one burns down. Or if one goes away, you still have many different places to grab it.
Bryce Paul 13:30
What are your thoughts on just for the average user of crypto, I’m using a platform like Coinbase, you know, or you know, where you they kind of custody the coins on your behalf? Do you think this is a good idea? Bad idea, situational?
13:46
I think a lot of people in crypto don’t like my opinion on this. But I would say that I support like holding money inside trusted institutions. So that being said, when to find the trusted institution, I would say we’re still trying to figure that out like FTX collapse, not just just about a year ago, Celsius block phi. So it’s, it’s hard to know what is trusted. But I would say I don’t want to make any corporate endorsements. But I would say if you’re not holding like a significant amount of money in crypto and you just like dabbling it, you’re just holding it to try it out. I would say that a centralized exchange when it’d be a bad idea. If you have more, if you have a significant amount of your net worth in crypto, I would say you 100% should move into a hardware wallet.
Aaron Malone 14:36
What do you think about the upcoming proposed Bitcoin ETFs and probably following a theory of ETFs I would imagine, as quote unquote trusted institutions or you know, essentially costing the Bitcoin and other crypto for you. We’ve seen greyscale go from being a great idea to Maybe not so much. But being why Mellon, one of the oldest banks in the US is going to have support for crypto pretty soon, you know, Blackrock is, you know, filing that ETF. They’ve managed trillions and assets for people. So you know, they’re not just going to run away with your money. Fidelity. Your thoughts on that? Yeah.
15:20
Yeah, I would say it’s, it’s great to have like the ETF, first of all, it’s just an amazing idea, because it allows regular consumers to, because not everyone’s purchasing their, their stocks on their, like regular brokerage accounts, people want to buy on their Ross, people want to buy their, like mutual funds and stuff like that. So that’s great. In terms of like, the custody part, it gets tricky, but you know, those banks hold a lot of money. And I’m not someone to say like, oh, we should always trust the banks. But as long as there’s transparent, I don’t honestly, I don’t know, the regulation in terms of like, showing your reserve requirements, there probably aren’t that many regulations, right now about how much you have to show, um, in terms of like, how liquid you are in that regard. But I would say as long as there’s some kind of proof of liquidity, there’s, it’s a great idea.
Bryce Paul 16:10
Yeah. And, and it one of the things that does strike me I mean, if we’re going to say on this Bitcoin ETF thing real quick, you know, a lot of the traditional financial institutions are really painting Coinbase as like, we’re going to use them as our custodian, we’re going to use these guys like Coinbase is pretty much the only game in town right now, even though they’re like under sued by the SEC, and all this kind of stuff. But like, it seems like Coinbase is like a huge honeypot. Like, well, I mean, it could be, you know, one level of big, you know, kind of centralized point of failure if all these ETFs are using Coinbase for custody, and then something happens to Coinbase. Like, what, what are the risks that Coinbase has for custody and all these coins.
16:57
So full transparency Coinbase is one of our investors, one of our partners at harpies. So that’s what that like, I don’t want that to be unknown in terms of like my opinion. But I guess when it comes to that risk of you know, Coinbase is the trusted partner of all these folks. I would say that if they fall down, it would be awful for the crypto space, it would be really, really bad, not just for crypto, but in terms of like our legitimacy in general, because a lot of people outside the crypto world only see Coinbase as see Coinbase as the only crypto company, if any. And that would just be really bad for reputation. But I think in the long term, it would add like a lot more. If if a company as regulated as Coinbase still falls down to you know, speculation and bad money management. It brings the opportunity for a lot of good players in the future to kind of take that torch and, and do a lot better. But I think at this point, there’s not we don’t have any more opportunity for second chances. Yeah,
Bryce Paul 18:02
it’s interesting. Yeah, I definitely. I’m a big supporter of Coinbase. But I you know, I hope that there are more companies like Coinbase in the future, that, you know, start in America that could kind of come up so that, you know, Coinbase doesn’t really have a monopoly essentially, on on crypto exchanges in the United States. I like Kraken. Kraken is a good exchange, and they’ve been doing a lot of good stuff. But yeah, regardless, need a couple more good options, I think. But yeah, tell us a little bit more about harpy maybe some success stories. I know that you guys have stopped over $2 million in kind of hacks in or I would say recovered $2 million in crypto for your users stopped a private key theft. But are there any other cool stories you could share with us?
18:55
Yeah, I would say like in terms of, I guess the coolest story that we had. A lot of the times people are meeting NF Ts and there was not just meeting NF T’s but trying new blockchains, just whitelist whitelist. Hunting in general, they’re always trying new protocols. And one cool thing that we did with our users was during the arbitrary AirDrop, which was kind of their reward for trying out the origin protocol early. We kind of guided a bunch of our users to actually claim that AirDrop, because I don’t know if you’re on Twitter at that time, but there were so many different scantlings it was like, different nightmare. Yeah, it was a cesspool. Yeah. We actually like kind of personally guided people in our Discord to to go through and claim that AirDrop. And you know, it was very, we don’t we usually don’t host like that many community events. But it was a very cool community event that we hosted to make sure that people got their money in a very safe manner. And if you look on Twitter, and if you looked at the aftermath of the arbitral AirDrop on Twitter, it was like so many different people got hacked and so many different people thought there was too Drink. So it was definitely just like a great use of our time to do that.
Aaron Malone 20:03
Amazing. And we’re so grateful that you do do that. I want to pick your brain just in general on the crypto space. As you mentioned, you’ve been around since 2012. And you’ve seen all kinds of narratives come and go different trends become the hottest thing only just to be completely dead. The year after, you know what little group we would put you on the hot seat right now real quick. Okay, name one thing that’s going on right now that you think will stand the test of time. And one thing that you think is a fad that’s going to go away and disappear like
Bryce Paul 20:36
that. I like where you’re coming from Pete’s.
20:39
Give me Give me a second to think about it. Yeah,
Aaron Malone 20:42
take it take your time.
20:43
I think okay. Thing that won’t go away. Things that will stay I think NF T’s NF T’s are an amazing idea. And NF T’s have been around for forever, or is NF T’s Magic the Gathering cards are NF T’s CSGO Skins or NF T’s like digital collectibles have been around forever. Collectibles in general have been around forever. And kind of the digital environment. I feel like we’re not thinking big enough. I think there’s a lot of cool things that we can do in terms of digital ownership in terms of like guild membership, digital, digital and physical events, stuff like that. And crypto is just a good way to authenticate this transaction is one thing that will not last, I think Dow was on the Dow as of like, 2021 2022. Maybe your heartache, but downs are just so inefficient. I think groups of people need small groups of people need leaders to perform. And because Dows have no leadership and no accountability measures. I just know a lot of stories where people make $250,000 a year of a salary off a Dow and they’re part of five different delis. And all they do is hop on a zoom call once a week and some BS opinion. So I don’t think I Dallas or MGM I in my opinion
Bryce Paul 21:59
not gonna make it. Yeah. Maybe good answer now isn’t like Aetherium run from a Dow basically,
22:08
there’s some dials that are really, really useful. I don’t know if Aetherium is run from a data structure. Or like the theorem foundation is run from a data structure but maker Dow which, which is, I think, the biggest defy protocol. Because maker Dow doesn’t need to constantly be innovating and making new products, they have great liquidity already. That is the application of a doubt that I really enjoy. But for new companies that can come out and say I’m a Dow, like fund us are cool. It’s just like that company will never do anything.
Bryce Paul 22:42
Alright, we’re gonna have to revisit that hot take in three, three to five years. And we’ll see how it turns out. I’m sure it’ll turn out it’d be less. Yeah, maybe less. But I’m curious, Daniel, because it seems like these hacks the scams are getting more clever by the day, almost like you know, in lockstep. As crypto gets more clever and more advanced, the scams get more clever and advanced. I saw something that happened with revoke the other or maybe this weekend or something where there’s some new thing that if you revoked an approval on that website, it would drain your wallet, there’s just all sorts of stuff. So kind of how are you guys looking out into the future? How are you guys trying to stay proactive to prevent, you know, the more clever scams,
23:31
I would say the the future of crypto, crypto theft and crypto security is is very complex like, has gotten so much more complex in the last year than it has in the last seven. So it’s just going to get the problem is just going to get worse, in terms of the things that we’re doing to make sure that people feel safe. We want to be the first like real edge, like educational and useful platform for security. So you know, think, think of budgeting app, the budgeting app or emails you about new things going on. It tells you best practices, you don’t always read the emails that it gives you. But some of the time it’s very useful. We kind of want to be that with crypto security, you know, just this educational resource that that tells people how to stay safe because at the end of the day, no matter how complex attackers get. The The reality is that when you get phishing, when you get scammed, it’s just always going to be something that’s too good to be true. So as long as you kind of like tell people the principles and make sure that they know kind of the basics of theft and phishing. No matter how complex the attack is going to be. We can still count on it.
Aaron Malone 24:44
You know, I’ve spent a lot of time thinking about web three over the past few years, especially as we interviewed developers like yourself, and in you know, the grand vision of web three that I have something like harpy running at the RPC node Air exists as a standard, not just a company, is there a community of RPC node operators that discuss certain things for best practices. So eventually, you know, every crypto wallet user is going to be safe the way harpy users are.
25:17
So there’s a couple of cool things that we’re doing in the in the RPC world. And just like the validator world, so there’s not many custom RPC is out there. I think it’s just us and this company called gas Hawk, which has like a gas optimization RPC. So it’s a very new world of possibilities. It’s not a place where people have innovated on a lot. But on the other side, it’s like, how do we get this to be a standard. So not to get too technical, but Ethereum is run by a validator community, all around the world, anyone can become a validator. But some validators are regulated by the US by governments and stuff like that. And we’re helping contribute kind of our ethical transaction filter. So just like making sure that people are not sending scam transactions, as a proposal to these validators to make sure that they’re not allowing scammers to, to transact through their through their notes and stuff like that. So that’s all very early, but we’re trying to innovate past far past and far lower level of the hackers can to stop theft.
Bryce Paul 26:17
Yeah. What’s it been like building through a bear market? What is this your guys’s first bear market? And you know, what’s the vibe? Like,
26:27
I would say, this is our first bear market, the company started in around 2021. So we’re still pretty young. In terms of, you know, how it feels to build in the bear market, it’s a lot, I’ve never built a company in a bull market bear market. So this is all very new to me. My personal experience is that it’s very, very difficult. It’s like, a lot of people are not getting the growth rates that they want. There’s, there’s a couple products that are growing. But it feels like a lot of the attention in the crypto space is based on and it always has been based on speculation, but even more so now than it is on kind of like cool products and stuff like that, because the people that are already in this space and have been in the space kind of already know what products that they want to use, but there’s not much new blood coming in.
Bryce Paul 27:14
Interesting. Yeah, what are your plans, you know, as a CEO, like to widen adoption for harpy or to bring more awareness to the problems that you’re solving,
27:27
I would say it’s a marketing problem. And it’s, I would say, right now we mostly market towards like crypto DJs, and tech people and stuff like that. But there’s just not that big enough crowd of those kinds of people to to make like a, you know, a sustainable product. So a big step in our future is actually just like making our product more web to professional friendly. A lot of our customers nowadays are people that have full time jobs and lead to and dabble like five to 10% of their investable income into web three. And I think that’s a good target to Google to go for. Because that type of people, those type of people are not on crypto Twitter all the time that are on other platforms that haven’t been so saturated with crypto content.
Aaron Malone 28:10
Yeah. What’s the cost to use the heart RPC nodes? Do we need some kind of token to pay for it? Or how does it work?
28:18
There is no cost at this moment. Right now, like for transparency sake, like we’re venture funded, we don’t want to charge customers at this point. And we want to make a lot of our money from our enterprise, software and stuff like that. So I hope to not charge customers anytime soon.
Bryce Paul 28:33
That’s good. Yeah. Love it. And where can people kind of follow you guys and get involved with heartbeat?
28:42
So we’re on Twitter at harpy IO. That’s H A RPI E. IO. And that’s also our website, heartbeat. Io. We’re mostly active on Twitter and our website, so you can check us out there.
Bryce Paul 28:54
Killer, Daniel, before we let you go, kind of a couple closing questions. Especially you know, from from a guy like you who’s been around for a long time, and who is really focused on security. If we were to boil it down, just to some some words of wisdom for maybe a newer cohort of crypto folks who might be coming in listen to crypto one on one, maybe for the first time, even today, you know, what some words of wisdom or word of advice that you’d give somebody newer coming into the space? I would
29:25
say? It’s, I’ve been saying this throughout the call. So it’s not like if it’s too good to be true, then it probably is. Yes. There are so many things in crypto where it’s like the tech is out of this world. This is the best new blockchain in the world. So like on the investment side, things are too good to be true. On the scam side is too good to be true. I would say there’s only a couple legitimate things in crypto, and most things are kind of like, not not relevant. So just like filter out the noise and figure out what you need to focus on.
Bryce Paul 29:58
Ya know, it’s like every single time you’ll see See in Twitter, oh, if you send one Aetherium to this address, we’ll send you 10 Aetherium back, right. And people fall for this scam still, you know, it’s like, come on, you guys gotta be nincompoops. Or, you know, send your board, APE NFT to this wallet, and you’ll get this upgraded one back. It’s like no, none of that ever works. So if it’s too good to be true, guys be cautious. And one of the other things actually, I heard in a similar vein recently was a quote I really liked, it was like, if somebody is ever rushing you towards the end of a deal, or for a deal, if somebody’s ever rushing you, that’s your signal to go twice as slow. And I think that also kind of, you know, works here in crypto, whether it’s a new investment opportunity, or a new liquidity farm or yield farm kind of deal that you want to jump into, you know, move slowly, and you’ll make better decisions that way.
30:56
You don’t want to get into FOMO. Like, I would say, the main reason why people fall into things are too good to be true is because there’s like, they built FOMO around it. And FOMO is the most first of all, like FOMO is dangerous in terms of investing. And it’s also the most dangerous thing to security people, people lose all their due diligence when it comes to FOMO.
Bryce Paul 31:14
Yeah, and you see even, you know, hedge fund managers and institutional asset allocators, you know, everybody falls prey to emotion too, sometimes. So try and keep your head above water.
Aaron Malone 31:25
Yep. Well tell you one last question. Before we send you off, give us a shout out to some people who have inspired you to do what you do, or who are also making a really big difference in the space. So we can send our users over there give them some likes and followers and respect.
31:41
I mean, my thing I would say like big shout out to like people that are just like superstars in the security community. So people like Zack SPT, revoke cash Rosco from revoked cash, those people are great. And they don’t have a profit motive at all. So it’s just, it’s just amazing to see. In terms of like, personal inspirations. This is so generic, but I want to hackathon in Denver a couple years ago, and I debated the telecon stage and it was just a big inspiration for me so shut up italic I don’t think we need to like and follow him he has. But yeah,
Bryce Paul 32:19
that’s incredible. I mean, hey, they always say never meet your heroes, but you met him. You debated him. How was it?
32:25
Oh, man, I felt like he was like in this bear costume. And we’re just he was only allowed to ask one question. And then he asked me like four or five different questions about like deep crypto topics and oh my god, it was it was in front of like 1000s of pupils. Yeah, it was. I wouldn’t do it again. But it was you’re still here. It’s funny. I was alive.
Aaron Malone 32:49
I was actually there for that moment. But I didn’t realize what I was
Bryce Paul 32:58
incredible. I Daniel, thanks for coming on. Maybe we could have you back on again sometime soon. When there’s another big upgrade or announcement or maybe you guys you know just stifled the next biggest hack and you guys want to announce it somewhere. We’d love to have you back. Cool. Take care.
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