Ep. 560 Growing the Decentralized Web3 Economy with Metis
Ep. 560 Growing the Decentralized Web3 Economy with MetisPowered by RedCircle
In this episode of Crypto 101 we talk to Elena Sinelnikova of Metis who is working on accelerating the transition to Web3 for an inclusive, accessible, and decentralized world via a powerful Layer 2. Tune in to learn all about the Metis ecosystem and how it differs from other layer 2s like Polygon, Optimism, or Arbitrum. Check out their website to learn more!
— TRANSCRIPT —
SPEAKERS
Aaron Malone, Bryce Paul
Bryce Paul 00:09
All righty, everybody, welcome back to another episode of the crypto 101 podcast. It is darn good to be here. Another great week in crypto, you know, any week you could survive. You know, it’s always a good week, because we’ve seen throughout this bear market, company after company go down. Alex machine ski was the big one that just went down. The other day, I saw that he was arrested, you know, the founder of Celsius, which is crazy. And pizza, mind him and how are you doing, man? Are you still alive?
Aaron Malone 00:46
I am alive. And I daresay I’m even doing well. It’s a beautiful day here in Sao Paulo, Brazil. And I feel like after last week, we finally turned a big corner in the sentiment in the crypto markets. And I don’t want to say we’re up only from here, but I feel like the worst is behind us. And crypto is really something that as I travel around the world, it unites us all. And in a time where the most creative people are coming out with reasons to divide us cryptos here and growing to bring us back together,
Bryce Paul 01:19
ya know, Couldn’t have said it better. And, you know, we’ve been talking this big theme throughout the bear market has just been builders are gonna build up or down. You know, no matter what the prices are doing, the builders don’t really care. These are the engineers, the scientists that are really pushing forward a lot of the technology that that gets us really excited and that we report on and so we’re actually joined by one such lady today. Alena Snell Nicola, who is the co founder of Metis, which is a huge blockchain platform and we’re really honored to have Alena on so Alina, welcome.
01:57
Thank you. Thank you for having me. Yeah.
Bryce Paul 02:00
We’re excited. You also founded crypto chicks. What was that?
02:05
That’s correct. That was back in 2016. Founded with my friend Natalia Amylin, yeah, just started doesn’t meet that for women to learn about blockchain, that we called it blockchain for ladies at the beginning. And then, yeah, and then Natalia is husband just basically gave us an idea to go with the crypto chicks and stick stock. Love the name stuck? Yes.
Bryce Paul 02:32
Yeah. I love that. No, it’s it was I remember, at the time when I was at consensus, or maybe a ethereal, in like 2017 or 2018. I remember seeing your guys’s booth and you guys had some merchant stuff. And so it’s cool to see, you know, you’ve been around for a long time, you’ve been a part of lots of different groups, built a lot of different things. You also graduated with a national, you know, electronics degree, and a master’s in computer science, from the national research university, electronic technology. And I think that’s just awesome. You’ve been been doing a lot of stuff and you’ve actually spent 20 years or so, engineering and working on full stack programming. Tell us a little bit about that.
03:16
Yeah, that’s correct. Before I joined blockchain technology, I was actually worked in the government and Canadian government and then also in Canadian law enforcement and the police, designing different systems, including the ones they have in the meeting management systems for the city council’s and the ones that they have in the Police cars. Police information check. Yes. All the systems by the way. Oh, life and well. Still in? Yes. Yeah. Engineering checks out. Yeah, absolutely. And it’s actually very exciting to see them, you know, still is stealing in tech and still life.
Bryce Paul 03:57
Very cool. And what made you hop over to blockchain and crypto development? Really, before we dive into medicine, what you guys are doing, like, what was it that pushed you or attracted you to this industry?
04:09
It’s very good question. Because I have had crazy, you know, comfortable life. I’m working at the, you know, law enforcement and government as well. And, but something called me is a good thing of, I got a little bit stuck in this, you know, corporate world. And I was looking for something new and exciting. And I found it. Yes, it was started back then when Vitalik just started Aetherium. I started reading about it because, you know, I knew that that like from like since before he was born. And you know, naturally I was very interested. What is what is it that
Bryce Paul 04:46
I got to hear that so we can’t just gloss over that you knew Vitalik before he was born. Let’s Let’s hear more.
04:52
Yes, yes, of course the Natalia Emmeline, who is my co founder at crypto chicks, and she’s my longtime friend. She’s the mother of five garlic. So that’s why yes, that’s why I knew him before he was born.
Bryce Paul 05:07
Yeah. Wow, that’s an awesome story. And so, so she gave birth to, to the guy who really, you know, kicked off this whole thing, which is pretty cool.
05:17
That’s right. And then yeah, and then she gave birth to crypto chicks as well. Exactly. Yes. Yeah. And
Bryce Paul 05:30
she’s smarter.
05:32
Or I can look compare, you know, Apple get get not fooled, I think in a way from the from the tree. Exactly. Exactly. Yes. She’s She’s definitely very smart. Very smart girl. Yes. And like they’re both very smart in math. And in life, I would say. Yes, I, but also very good people to very genuine. That’s why she’s my friend, my best friend. Yes. Back then, when Vitalik actually, I got interested when he decided to drop off the university. Because of the krypton blockchain, I felt like wow, it’s must be something really good to, you know, to be able to drop the university for. And yeah, started to reading and Natalia actually gave me the task to help her with the wallet, installing fearing wallet on the Windows machine. And I’ll spend a fair amount of time doing that.
Bryce Paul 06:31
That’s a super cool story. I love it. Thank you. I also
Aaron Malone 06:36
dropped out of university, I just didn’t find crypto until maybe 10 years later.
06:45
Yeah, all of a sudden dropping out of university is a good thing. Who knew? But yes, we installed Aetherium wallet. It was like, Ooh, it’s so kind of like was not very trivial. Because, again, this was early stage of this software. And yeah, there was not a lot of information around and Natalia, we decided, why don’t we start the meet up for the girls to learn, because there were two girls was two software engineers, and we barely could figure out how to do it, how the others will be able to do it. So we really want to push you know, Aetherium into the masses, because at that time, we already believe that this is such a democratic technology. I’ve read the book, and it’s like, well, wow, the whole world is trying to build a democracy. And here it is. Blockchain is a democracy already there by the default. Yes. So we very interested and started meet up, got from there got lots of women that showed up, you know, like grandmothers with the walkers and Oh, my Lord. Yes. Yeah. And they all lists sitting and watching us, we drew on the board the blockchain, how it works, how the mind works, why is it that this is decentralized and how it is actually that’s very safe and secure in the cryptography. So that was a lot of aha moments. So it was very inspiring to see, you know, this girls, and we started doing this meetups regularly. And then we did a big conference event with 174 girls that came from all over the world to the crypto chicks hackathon. And that song was in in 2017. And it was just very, very, very much the start one. And lots of girls actually got the jobs. And you know, Microsoft and IBM took the project from their, from our crypto chicks hackathon into the development, it was very inspiring, even like, what was one project from Africa that IBM took, so the girl from Zimbabwe to develop that, so? Wow. Anyway, so we were really, really inspired. And so we continue doing that. We were hit by the, you know, bear market and COVID and this and that, but nothing stopped us. We create the crypto chicks Academy crypto chicks hatchery, which is the incubator and that’s how I met my co founders. It meets this given game to me, actually, it was one of the crypto chicks event. And he voiced the idea of needs. And I was like, at the beginning, I barely could understand that. But at the time, he was coming back and coming back very insistent. And, you know, and then it’s darkness. Oh, okay. Now I get it what it is I, I would like to do it. And I agreed to be a CEO. At that time. We built the team together, raise the funds and started the kind of like new idea of the blockchain platform. It means it was layer two, we needed the platform for this. And that’s how it all started with Metis.
Aaron Malone 09:52
That’s an amazing origin story. Let’s talk about what is metus and what are the problems that it’s addressing?
09:59
Yeah, Originally, we started Metis as the web three economy, it means that we wanted to have companies and people working together in a decentralized environment where nobody controls it. So there is no, like, nobody holds the keys, no single point of failure, and where the companies can do the business easily, and also transparently, if they choose to, of course, the privacy would be it would be in play, too. But most importantly, people from you know, any country, regardless of where they are in the world could work at these companies as well have the different opportunities. So that’s how we have a cold battery economy. And it was based out of decentralized autonomous companies or decentralized autonomous corporations that would work together, and people would work for them. And that’s nobody could kind of like control or say, you know, you work for this company, you work for that one, no, you have, you know, you have a choice. And it can happen, that kind of like platform where it all can happen automatically. So that is our was our idea. And that’s what Metis was. But we started from the infrastructure because we needed the base infrastructure for this company to function. So the transaction has to be fast and cheap and transparent and robust. And which would meet these. Wow, so that’s, that’s what that’s what Metis is that three economy?
Bryce Paul 11:31
And his meat is a you mentioned, it’s a layer two. So is this something that is built on top of Aetherium? As a layer two? And you know, maybe give us some more, one on one level understanding of what that means?
11:45
Yeah, absolutely. Yes. When we were building this lecture economy, we’re questions like, Where do we build it, of course, the theory naturally is our choice, because this is the most decentralized otherwise, you know, we would not build it if it’s not decentralized, but a theory on the transactions at the time, they cost a lot. Sometimes it you know, it minutes until you confirm the transaction. So we needed something faster and cheaper. And that layer two is was the natural choice. But at that time, when we were looking at different layer twos, we couldn’t find the one that we want to find one that cost, little. And we’ll be fast. So we built our own layer two, and that’s how meat is started as a layer two. So layer two is a scalability solution for Aetherium, that built on top of Aetherium. And we built it as an optimistic roll up, it means that we process transactions in batches. So it means this layer two collects transactions in in a batch, let’s say that, you know, 100 transactions we collect and then we save all transactions to layer one, which is Aetherium as one, and then all the fees get divided by this transaction. So therefore the transactions are cheap. And because this transaction is processed all at once this therefore transactions are fast as well. So yeah, so this is this is what the in essence, one to one, layer two is and yes, we built our own mucus, layer two, if you look at the you know, different websites, like for example, l two fees, you will see that Metis fees for the transmitter transaction is the lowest right now in Amman, optimistic roll ups. And I think we’ve been all added layer twos. Yeah, so we built the competitive layer two. And on top, we already now building all other layers on top. So to support decentralized autonomous, dumb companies to have different use cases, we have ICA nodes, which is the implementation of this decentralized autonomous companies we have right now five of them already working. And we are working on the governance system where this new, decentralized autonomous companies can be created by the community and supported by the community as well. So we’re not the ones that producing them. That’s single point of failure.
Bryce Paul 14:16
Is there any like web two company that’s like that you guys are like, similar to like, Is this similar like payroll kind of service? Or is it similar more to like, you know, Google, you know, Google file sharing and all that kind of stuff? Like what’s it most similar to I guess?
14:36
So if you for example, if you compared to I would say like WordPress, so WordPress, where different people can create plugins on top of WordPress, so something like that, but instead of plugin, you create your own organization. You can employ people.
Aaron Malone 14:56
It makes a lot of sense. So let’s look at the theory. In the ecosystem now, which has you know, maybe a dozen l tos on top of it to help at scale. Last Bull Run was horribly clogged down just from regular transactions to NFT. minting to crazy scams or using Max gas fees for like a week straight. Where are we at in terms of overall ecosystem health for this next Bull Run now that we’ve kind of turned the corner in the market? And it seems like things are gonna get busier, we’re seeing defi coins, starting to skyrocket in price as well. They’ve had a pretty good week, this past week. Are there any weak points left in the theory ecosystem? Or do we have enough bandwidth for everything that’s to come over the next couple of years? What do we need to work on? Still?
15:44
Certainly, we’ve moved a lot since the infrastructure because yes, as you say that there’s lots of layer twos that are built, there are there are still gaps in infrastructure. And for example, this the gaps would be for the layer two for the other. So there are there are two types of delay or choose. There are optimistic roll ups and z k roll ups. So optimistic ROMs, I pretty much describe what they are the processing transactions in the batches. So what is the disadvantage of the optimistic roll up and optimistic roll ups are the largest right now has the largest market, it’s a billion in total value locked. So almost all money or like, all transactions are in there. But they have all optimistic roll ups have one disadvantage in order to withdraw money from layer two to layer one. So you can process transactions, and you’d be on the layer two with no problem. But if you would like to withdraw money from layer two to layer one, transfer money from layer one to layer two, it’s momentarily, but if from layer two to layer one it is it takes seven days actually, to withdraw. So this is a big hurdle for the FBI, because he needs to move money fast sometime. And so so so this is the
Bryce Paul 17:05
and the reason for those seven days. I think some people get confused, like, well, I thought crypto was supposed to be instant and quick, it’s really a security measure that this
17:14
measure is exactly yes, because it takes a seven day. So optimistic roll up works. Like as, as I described, when we save the batch of the transactions onto the theory, um, there was seven days waiting period when everybody you know, including you and me and the whole community can go and look at the transactions and see if there’s anything wrong in there. And you can also submit fraud proofs, it means that if you find something wrong, you can submit the fraud proof and view actually rewarded for it. But find if you find the mistake, these transactions can be rolled back. So therefore there is a seven days waiting period. If there is no, nobody proved the fraud in this seven days, the transactions all are accepted true and valid. So the seven days window by itself is defined by Aetherium. Security. So seven days, it means that if somebody are overtaken Aetherium, for seven days, it becomes after seven day become it takes all money in the world to keep it. So like let’s say like that. So it’s kind of like not possible to keep theory on costs, which was seven days. So therefore the seven days is the limitation of when you can kind of like prove the transaction true or false. And this is a security measure, it means that if you have the seven days, it’s bulletproof and optimistic, it means that if nobody proved you wrong, optimistically everything is true. So so that’s why it’s called optimistic there is also a second type of the roll up is a z k roll up. So it works differently, it is actually based on a mathematical equation that is melamine for the feelings, think of a smoke and mirrors, but this is you you solve the mathematical equation and therefore you prove the transaction to so therefore, the transaction can be withdrawn right away from z k. But there are other disadvantages of the case from First of all, they are super hard to build. Second, they for the EVM compatible once EVM is the Etherion virtual machine. And that’s what everybody wants. Everybody wants to kill compatibility with the Etherion virtual machine. Otherwise, it’s hard to build on if it’s non Aetherium virtual machine. So for this, it is hard to keep Ziqi ROLAP updated all the time because the Etherion virtual machine keep changing and changing and changing so you have to keep updating and updating and updating and therefore there are bugs and bugs and bugs and instabilities and crashes. So that’s what is happening with z k roll ups right now. And optimistic ones is the most stable Once, but there is seven days. So it’s kind of like balance between the two. So we need to solve that. And yeah, so we have right now the project actually that is solving that is built in exactly the solution for for this, this one of the decentralized autonomous company on MC. Is that doing that? Yeah. So this is going back to your question what we have the gaps in the for the next Bull Run. So we have this. So like the gaps in still in the Lair juice, there is advantages and disadvantages for the Etherium itself. Of course, there is like there’s upgrades and everything, but we still will be relying on layer choose to process transactions. So Ethereum, processing those actions on Ethereum directly, will still can be very expensive, and can be very slow at times. So therefore, the solution is to be on a layer to use. But for that we need to solve this hurdle of the layers use, which we do. And what also, I hope that’s going to happen by the next Bull Run, is that adoption of the web to companies? So right now, we all the whole space is looking for the use cases, where we can be adopted by the UN within an adopted in a way not, you know, to push it, like in a digital currency of some country, or something like that. But you know, real use cases that can go on board, and they’re actually companies say yes, thankfully, I have a blockchain to help me to solve that. So we didn’t get reached that stage yet. I believe we didn’t yet. So the next bull run would be nice to have that. Do you anticipate
Bryce Paul 21:42
that in the next Bull Run? A cerium? will get bigger than Bitcoin? You mean, so why or why not?
21:52
In, in what’s in the in market cap, or yeah,
Bryce Paul 21:56
in market cap, I guess the way I think about it sometimes is like, you know, the theory was maybe half the size and market cap, but it just seems like I use a theory, I’m so much more, everybody uses a theory and so much more people build on it. And bitcoin is just maybe the largest because it’s the oldest, but it’s not that much that used that much. And so obviously, you decided to build your company on Aetherium you know, you could have chose Bitcoin but yeah, I was just getting your thoughts on the the flippin Nene as they call it.
22:25
Yeah, that’s what will be the critical point when the web to start using Blockchain. And that’s what it’s going to be one of their blockchains that are built on Aetherium. And that’s where all like the flip is gonna go. Right now. Everything, unfortunately, you know, is built on the popularity and Bitcoin is more popular because it it was there longer, and it has like kind of more people believe in it, because it’s there longer. So that’s why it is and it’s more stable as well, it means that because it’s not changing. It’s a good and bad because for Bitcoin, it is stable, but he cannot build on it that much. So for the store of value is good, but only for the store of value. But if you start building on it, and if web just company started building on it, like they cannot buy they will build on the theory and therefore the flip will happen.
Aaron Malone 23:21
Make sense? Let’s talk about some of the use cases that blockchain could have in government, going back to your days working for good old Canada. What problems could having a blockchain potentially solve? As we’re seeing so much chaos? In many different world governments right now in all different ways? What are some ways a blockchain could help us? I guess, be more functional and efficient?
23:50
Yes, my opinion, maybe governments will go last onto the blockchain. So they are one of their, you know, loggers and not the early adopters for sure. Why it’s not even be because of the use cases, because probably governments are super careful of this new technologies. It happened when I worked in the police, for example. When a back in 2000, Microsoft start introducing the cloud. And then the government of Belize said, there is no way we move our systems to the cloud. We just don’t trust it. Because like in the cloud, we have our server room here. And we know that our records are safe here to move it to the cloud. No, no, no. So now they actually move in it but it’s past 25 years, like I mean 25 years later, they do it but it’s actually past like everybody else is doing the cloud for awhile, but the government’s only the only dude now. So the garments will be loggers. So if we talk about governments or use cases and when this you know, we already get all the web to companies, the government’s will come last and Use it use cases for them. Oh, you know, voting would be great one. But in this case as well, it depends on which government, the government who has corruption, they will resist, because everything was transparent. Right. So and that that is something so so the most progressive governments, of course, will jump first. And that’s what we will see. Also, the government’s is very little reluctant probably to give, give away the control. And that’s what blockchain means that you need to give away some of the control. And that’s what also I see the hurdle. But what could be another use case, like for the transparency of the contracts, for example, there was lots of companies like public companies that takes government contracts, so and they are getting paid. So for the transparency of it, right now governments are posting it on the website, just you know, the numbers and how much contractors are getting. But it would be great to have it on the blockchain. So it like all the transactions would be there already. Yeah,
Bryce Paul 26:02
it’d be great if, like, for instance, the Pentagon who I read a report that they were like missing, or miss accounting for like $6 trillion dollars in assets, like some just laughable number, that I haven’t passed an audit in like four years, it’s like, well, if you guys anchored all your spending, and you know receivables and your all your accounts on chain, you could algorithmically be audited every second of the day. And when that be something, but hey, maybe they’re better, you know, if you think who’s benefiting from this $6 trillion that’s gone missing? Well, it’s, it’s the Pentagon, and it’s the US government, and you know, all that shit.
26:39
You know, I mean, we get a judge because we are not there. So we don’t know it for a fact. But yes, I would like working in crypto I, I probably see lot of human flaws come out more than you I’ve worked in, in any other industry, right? So like everybody, you know, and then the scammers and the hackers, they all they’re, you know, but this is all kind of like human virtues. So human characteristics, so yeah, and the government’s, unfortunately, because the government consists of humans, inevitably, there will be corruption and mistakes and overlooked and, yeah, so. But it’s nothing to do with the technology. And blockchain is just the technologies like with the technology, of course, we’re gonna fake it, we can fix it. But there’s a human factor that we cannot fix. I hope eventually, it’s all gonna come together. And we all going to become honest and transparent. When it’s going to be I don’t know, hopefully, in the next 25 years,
Aaron Malone 27:41
would be nice. But that is why software is built to function in an adversarial environment. And everything that is being built now is being forged in fire, to become the next beautiful piece of artwork in the future after it’s cooled and settled and hardened. Both people and projects alike. Yeah,
Bryce Paul 28:01
yeah. Well, yeah. Well, tell us a little bit about, you know, beyond what you guys are building at Metis. And beyond some of the things that we’ve talked about, where else is the industry going? What are you looking forward to? Are you looking at some of the promise from NF NF T’s? Are you really, you know, excited about maybe a certain defy application?
28:22
Yes. Something that, for example, like one of our we have the Eco nodes, it means that this immediacy ecosystem, we have the core businesses, the core decentralized, autonomous companies that were incubated, and that is realizing one of the Metis goals. So like, for example, one of them is NuVal. And it’s based on the soul bound nfts. And this is the reputation power, like so this is a big one. And right now they’re doing events engage, they started from actually web to events and engagement, engaging people and collecting all those, you know, activities that people do at the events and then they will have, you know, maybe free tickets to some events, free tickets, free access and VIP tickets and so on, so forth. So based on the reputation power, so NF T’s in this case, there is a reputation power. Amazing. And if these four artists, of course, we saw it happening, and I’m so glad that actually the artists were able to earn money using NF T’s and they will still be this is an amazing tool. One of other use cases that I saw and that is also developed by one of our economics course. This is influencer marketing. It means that like, for example, just give you the use case, if you have, you know, company and we’d like to highlight one of the features that you’ve just produced. You can put the bounty to the community and say, Hey, I’m betting that my drag plus $1,000. And everybody that tweet about my feature will get $1 from it. So and that’s the use case that this is actually blockchain. And it’s already, of course is doing that. It’s already you can see you start tweeting and you can see mine already coming in into your account and this is all controlled by the blockchain. So, yes, you can see that so fair. Everybody’s in the same boat and everybody’s getting $1 per tweet. So that that is something cool, too.
Bryce Paul 30:31
Yeah, it sounds awesome. Yes. Yeah, no, I was gonna say, I can’t wait for you know, hopefully, Elon Musk to roll some stuff out like that for Twitter. I know. There’s been rumblings of some kind of blockchain component to Twitter. But, you know, he’s he’s starting to pay out content creators and change things up there. But it’s, you know, it’s great to have, you know, other social platforms that are, you know, maybe blockchain native come out and really push the envelope forward.
30:58
That’s Yes, I I’m very much looking forward to it. Yes. And well, you will see, you probably will hear the news from that’s coming out from our ecosystem rolling out exactly that in August already. So it’s not far. We don’t need to wait for Elon Musk to do it. Wait for Elon Musk, we can do it ourselves. Yeah.
Aaron Malone 31:23
It’s been an amazing last half hour chatting with you. And we have just a couple more questions that we’d like to ask before we let you get back to building the web three economy. For those who are listening to the podcast for the first time, just getting into crypto, you know, they probably saw the news from the XRP case and thought, Well, hey, maybe now’s a good time to get in? What are some words of warning or words of encouragement that you would give to them?
31:47
Yes. So those of you who are discouraged by the bear market, and especially if it’s your first one, don’t be discouraged. We live through many of them. We all survived, so will you and we all get rewarded when we invent, you know, the next greatest latest and greatest thing and we go into the bull market because of that. So that’s why we built in very hard to to be able to take you there. So it’s number one, just you know, hang on. It’s not gonna die. No. This is great technology.
Bryce Paul 32:21
Amazing. I couldn’t agree more Alina and before we let you go. We want to know where can we follow along with meatus? Are you guys really active on Discord or telegram? Is it is it a Twitter community?
32:35
Yes. Oh, so to follow. So we have twitter at Metis Tao. Okay. By the way, beware of the scammers. There’s a lot of companies that trying to impersonators impersonators, yeah. So if you meet this m e TISDAO. So let’s meet is Dallas our lair to then we have also meet his Tao fnd ever meet is Dell Foundation. So it’s another one? Yes. Yeah, because the structure that we have, we have a foundation that is called an arm for all the community projects, which is the LM economics. And also we have a telegram and Metis Tao as well. Telegram also means that we’ll be aware of the scammers and eti SDAO. So that’s that’s our telegram pretty active communities there. And yeah, so we also have discord. Unfortunately, I don’t remember the discord name. It probably is Metis Dow to
Bryce Paul 33:37
go on to the meters down website. And probably can get
33:42
me just go down. Yeah, yeah. meters.io m eta s.io and stead this outlet layer to website and down the foundation. This is our Foundation website that gets you to all our economics. So you see everything that is built right now on this and it is our foundation.
Bryce Paul 34:05
Wonderful. Well, Alina, thank you so much for coming on today. Spend in the past 45 minutes with us and talking about the future of crypto, this was really exciting and we are really, you know, fortunate to have you on with us and so if you see Vitalik tell them to come on to the crypto 101 podcast. We’d love to have them.
34:25
Okay
Bryce Paul 34:27
awesome. Take care everyone.
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